locations and permits stress

[Mark Jury]

Do you really need to pay the council for a permit like they do over in LA? If you're shooting on someone's property without permission, surely they'll never know unless your film gets a release. And if it did, you could get the forms signed right before it was released.. Also, is it illegal to put cops in your film without them knowing? -- how much do they charge for you to film their cars, etc?

[Chance1234]

All depends on what Borough your filming in and where, some councils will charge, Bromley are total
W*nkers for this, others if you say your on a low budget will wave the fee. always worth getting the proper paper work can help in situations like, Police, Accidents, theft or damage to kit etc etc etc
best thing to do is talk to your local screen commision you can get the details from the BFC website of the BFI. there really helpful and will put you in contact with the borough film officer and can help with locations etc. They fouind us the locaiton for Deadlights through Thurrock Council. had to pay a fee of a ?100 to speed up the paper work as i gave thurrock council only 4 days notice and got to give a credit to Thurrock council and the people of purfleet.

Police seem friendly enough always inform them, the fire brigade, and ambulance when doing a shoot i have heard of people getting the police in there films for free, go to your local cop shop and have a chat with them, remember everyone loves "getting on Camera" if there is a fee then do the hard up indie film maker routine and theyll properly lower it or drop it.

Regards

Chance

www.lookingglass.atfreeweb.com/desktop/deadlights/index.htm


[This message has been edited by Chance1234 (edited September 29, 2000).]

[marti-c]

I was just asking this question about what you can film and what you cant just a few weeks ago. The answer one of the senior lecturers gave was " if its in the public domain ie public road etc then its a free for all." So to film anybody in the street needs no permission from them and that includes police etc.
Even some dodgy ones can be got away with. He told a story of flying over balmoral castle, in a helicopter, whilst the queen mum was in residence. The shot went well but when he landed the police were waiting for him. Unusually they let him keep the tape but had to write a letter of apology to the royals saying he wouldnt do it again (when they were in residence)

marti

[Keviano]

When we filmed a no-budget at a local factory we used prop guns, microdets and a real Samuri sword and we got away with it. I think you may face a problem if anyone sees you and your crew as a threat and calls the police on you for brandishing weapons in public. Most people we came accross realised we were film makers before they had us arrested! We didn't get permission from the factory either, but it was closed so no one saw us... If you're gonna use guns be careful, remember, if the law enforcement agencies see you brandishing what they think is a real gun, they have the right to shoot you. This is a UK law, dunno how it varies in other countries. If you use microdets or other pyrotechnics, make sure you're not near a petrol station or anything else that could go bang!

[director666]

yes, I had a fucking problem with guns, I want to use guns in an quiet urban area, and I thought id do the sensible thing of consulting the police to see if they could aid me in anyway, but all I got was a fucking irate bastard copper who just said " NO" without even listening to what i was saying, he offered no support or any options, so now hes forced me to shoot the film where the fuck I like with shitloads of guns, all because the twat of a plod didnt help me! however , other coppers may be more helpful

[Chance1234]

Man, im reading the responsies and shuddering here,

if you are using any blank guns or pyrotechnics you must inform the police. Full stop.
There are a million and one reasons behind this, also proper usage of guns on set. Ideally you should have an armourer or someone who has a Class 5 Firearms Licence. Guns should also be kept in a locked metal box separate from the ammunition and they should have some sort of reference of them. Ie ultra violet markings.

Also Blank guns and pyrotechnics are dangerous they can kill. Full stop.
To prove this point get a shoe box, place your blank gun in the shoe box and fire it. Look at the damage caused to the shoe box, now believe it or not the card on a shoe box is a lot tougher than your skin. Also pyrotechnics, now we used electronic thunder flashes on our last shoot, the kind you can buy when playing paintball games, we had this buried 6 inches in the ground and they through up a good 20ft. if you were right next to one went it went off you could say goodbye to a limb or your life quite easily. This is another reason why you should have insurance. Note if your actor has an injury from a blank gun or pyrotechnics with out an armourer being on set, with out the police knowing, without insurance you can be charged with ABH or worse Manslaughter.

When filming on public land, the police cant confiscate your tapes, equimpent, they can request a copy for evidence, under extreme circumstance they can confiscate but thats shortly after the line " you dont have to say anything , but what you do say ?." They can however confiscate fire arms - a blank gun , pyrotechnics are firearms. A piece of wood shaped like a gun can be counted as a firearm too. And if you dont have the permits permission you can be charged with carrying a firearm, then you?ll find yourself in court having to prove your intentions.

Also News Crews and film Crews are two very different fields. And the same rules apply to low budget to they do big budget productions. A low budget doesnt give you a licence to be stupid.

Also if the police refuse to let you film somewhere, then there may be a god dam good reason behind it. For example say the road you wanted to film in was near a school, they wouldnt even let the big players film near there with guns.

Also, I ve been nearly here myself not on film but when I was a Army cadet instructor, if the police get a report of a sighting with some one with a firearm, they?ll have no delay in sending out SO-19. And if its a false alarm and you havent been shot , you?ll find yourself having to do community service.

Finally if you want to use guns, pyrotechnics, do it properly if you cant afford to do it properly then DONT DO IT. Screen Commisions are absolutely blinding in getting things like this arrnaged, councils can be a bit arsey but go to the screen commision first and they can normally sort out all that crap for you. I have never had any trouble with dealing with police, ambulance and fire services , talk to these people. But if you want to go ahead without insurance, without permission, without proper care then your a F*cking iresponsible Muppet. I would never ever work on a set where there wasnt the proper permissions and implications in place.

A low budget is no excuse to put lifes at risk

Chance

[Chance1234]

Not sure on the point you are trying to make here,

informing the police, is for your own benefit more than anything was the point I was trying to make, true you dont need to if you are on private land, but do you really want all the stress if you don?t, also the last thing you want getting to set is to be pulled over and have to explain why you have a collection of blank firing guns. Also when we are filming we always call the local fire brigade and Ambulance. All it takes is someone seeing any one with a gun and one phone call and the police will be down there like a shot whether its private or not. When I was involved with the ACF we were on private land, but some old dear had seen us from a long distance from what was public land. Next thing was the whole road nearby had been closed off and was swarming with so-19. Also on the last shoot of Deadlights, we were on private land then but the police had received reports of two guys walking around with shot guns that they were looking for, and that wasnt us!


And your saying about that blank guns are extremely safe then you have quoted from my web site,


>>"At the end of the take, JB comes up to me with the gun; what I didn?t realise, in the >>second take the gun had
>>exploded when it fired and the slide cover had bounced of his head, luckily he was ok and l>>ike a true pro
>>he carried on through the take and the rest of the set-ups."


This is the reason why I m so shit hot on it now, the guns we had first time round f*cked up, that could of been so nasty if it had hit him in the eye. Blank guns are dangerous and if there not stored, cleaned properly then that heightens the risk of accidents more. Btw the guns we had first time were stored and cleaned properly, total freak that that happened. and yes we had insurance plus trained first aiders. the reson i didnt notice was he was a good 30 metres away from where i was and it wasnt in shot at the time, hence being the camera operator i could only see what was in frame. I wouldnt say blank guns are extremely safe, furthest I would go is saying that to reduce the risk they need to be properly controlled and stored well by someone who knows what they are doing.

Note the word ideally, a class 5 firearms licence isn?t a full firearms licence it is given to people who mainly use stage pyrotechnics, blank guns etc . I might have the reference wrong but what it means along with the armourer that you have someone who is responsible on set. also try getting insurance for a set without and armourer or someone with a class five and see how much they quoute you.

We were let down by our Armourer by the last minute which was damm annoying as it suddenly upped the budget by ?240. The blanks and the pyrotechnics I handeld myself on set now I had insurance , trained first aiders down on set. if your wondering what my experience with pyrotechnics is, well 3 stage productions, 2 years in the TA and a further year as a ACI. Also everything was done to the book, the guns were locked, the ammunition separate, the pyrotechnics were well stored and wernt connected until seconds before they were going to be fired. The area was kept clear with allt the safety limits, and we had the regulations and usage which we got from the company who supplied us with them displayed at all time.

Now, we had insurance plus two qualified first aiders. All the responsibility was in my hands. Anyone had an accident it was covered. But there are two many sets where this doesnt happen and good actors who are prepared to work for free are hard enough to come by do you really want to blow them up ?

Now as I said we were let down by our armourer right at the last minute, if I hadn?t of had insurance, first aiders and someone who knew what they were doing then I wouldn?t of gone ahead. Simple as.

And yes we informed the police, fire brigade and ambulance before we done our shoots.

And if you want to be pedantic with the last quote


>>"Get home and out of frustration and they needed testing anyway, I give the blank guns a >>final clean and
>>test fire ? scaring the shit out of my Neighbours."

My neighbours were actually over the fence when I done this, and there really wasnt any danger of the police being informed cos my house is extremly cut off from any public land etc.

Point of my original mail is that low budget is no reason to put anyone at risk. Especially if you have people working for free.


[This message has been edited by Chance1234 (edited October 02, 2000).]

[Chance1234]

The guns we had around the first time, were too in the ?70 range which had been used many many times before, and the gun which had the jamming was because of the carb ejection hole. We had two different types of rounds one plastic tip the other carb tipped. The carb tipped work fine but we didnt have many of those rounds. The plastic tipped just clocked the carb after 2-3 rounds. Hence why we only loaded it with one or two rounds. The second gun we had was working fine total surprise that it exploded like it did. Both guns were kept well oiled and well stored. And testing them were fine. For the second shoot we intened to hire, our armourer was meant to supply these, I wont mention the cost as we had a deal and im currently crewing up for the next shoot. E-mail me off group and I will tell you. So we ended up buying brand spanking new blank firers which added ?240 to the budget, could of added ?400 but luckily we managed to blag a deal and were hiring them out and earning a bit of cash on them.

Blank guns are dangerous, if there not cleaned properly then you get a whole load of crap in the chamber thats going to come out one way or the other, also dry firing upsets the pin which can cause a round to misfire. Guns which are kept well oiled can dry badly and rust the insides.

The accident we had JB wasnt serious, if it was, I wouldnt be joking about it on the site but it could so easily of have been. The only explanation I give is a dodgy round.

Never ever had any problem in talking to the police, I have heard of people having problems, but all we have had on all our productions is nothing but help. Even had them come down and visit and normally we get a contact at the station if we do need any help. Btw we sometimes inform the police even if were not using guns, just helps if you do have any trouble from the locals or you get the old permission problems. Next film is going to take us over and East End industrial estate and I can see there being problems there.

My irresponsible muppet comment, well if you dont have first aid, not taken the proper precautions and the proper impliments then what else is it ? read the rest of my site and you?ll find safety briefings, demonstrations, first aiders, insurance minmum distances, guns locked etc etc.

I tell you a little story to do with first aid, think this is in the BECTU guidelines re low budget (not to sure on that one)

a few years ago there was a indy production co something like London Indy Film maker. It was a indy maker who was running his stuff through a limited like a lot of people myself included do actinga s producer/director. Now this guy started of making low budget stuff and getting it out to festivals. Soon he was getting noticed , and got one of his films into the really big festivals like Cannes. He also got given x amount to make his next short.

His next short was being shot in studio, due to poor cable bashing one of the runners ended up tripping over one of the cables, doing so he also pulled down a 20Kw Blond which struck him across the back.

They had no one on set with first aid, the assistant director tried to move him, in doing so he paraylsed the guy from the neck down.

The result ? the producer/director was charged with assault and ordered to pay damages to the runner and for the care of his now paralysed runner. As he had no insurance he had to declare himself backrupt. So as well as getting himself a criminal record he?s in debt basicly for the rest of his life. even though he didnt move the person as a producer he was responsible for everyone on set , by not having anyone down there with first aid, he basicly F*cked up big time.

That could of been so easily avoidable, its not that hard to do a first aid course, speak to your local St-Johns, Business Link and sometimes local council offer courses for free, what?s it going to take , a few hours in the evening for a week or so or a couple of days out of your time.

Getting a copy of the Health and Safety guidelines, takes two minutes on a PC to find and download.

Such a small thing that can make such a big difference, yes accidents do happen on set, and you cant wrap everyone up with cotton wool. But you can run a safe set and be properly prepared. How many of you exposure peeps film with out a first aid kit to hand ? 7.99 for a basic first aid kit. If you cant work that into your budget then yeap ill stick with my original irresponsible muppet line.

Chance

[Chance1234]

talking too the insurance company, they require the armourer to be down on sets at all time when the firearms/pyrotechnics were being used.

also another point re using public land is public liability insurance. we even had to prove that when using the garrison in thurrock.

i havent personally shot any scenes in high profile areas but know a few people who have. even know one girl who managed to shoot in Soho with blank guns !!! best bet is to speak to the screen commisions, they can really hellp out with stuff like this.

[Keviano]

Hey Chance, I'd really appreciate any more info you'd have on the Class 5 Firearms Licence and Armourers safety licences. We also take great care with guns and pyros, though we often use airsoft pistols in films because we're very low budget!

Definatly good advice about the first aid kit, invaluable.
http://www.catdogfilms.co.uk